Sold pictures

We don't mark out which photos have been sold because we don't want to scare away other people from buying them - that's the main reason!

I do agree that we need some way of helping you folks to improve, but I don't know if telling you which photos have sold is the only way to do it.

The things that you already have access to which could help you improve are: The Snapshot blog (photos selected by our publishing and sales teams) and the Photo of the Week poll.

Unfortunately, the Photo of the Week only gets a few dozen votes each week - did you already know it existed or is this the first time you've heard about it? I'm trying to work out how we can get more people voting and commenting - the whole point of the blog is to help you guys out there see some good photos and think about and discuss what makes them good. I thought perhaps we could start having some commentary from the photographers each week explaining why and how they took each photo.

The final option is always to look in the newspapers, magazines, etc that cover the types of event you photograph and see what images they use for the various types of story - but I imagine that's probably something you do anyway.

If we were to create a section of the forum specificially for critiquing each other's photos, would that be useful? Would anyone use it? Would you play nice? Any feedback appreciated, as ever.

Sorry Tom, but I don't agree.

mulea Catalin has a valid argument and raises once again the issue of tear-sheets, which Juliette once provided. They were a great motivational and educational tool for contributors, not to mention the fact that we are entitled to know which of our photos sold, to whom, for what duration, and for what purpose, even if only for our records and future licensing options, which in many cases your are now withholding from us.

Immediate and transparent updated dashboard/sales information - not asking for the money. We realize it can take clients months to pay. But I am asking for immediate feedback on my work and sales - that's what provides motivation!

That's where you need to put your efforts! "Photo of the week" and other critique methods are not the purpose of a news agency and not the reason why I am here. There are lots of photography forums on the internet for critique from peers or for children looking for votes and I'm not surprised you have so few participants.

Thank you both of you for reading my thread and for taking time to answer it!

@ Nir Alon: EXCELLENT! You really got my point of view!
@ Tom: I do subscribe to what Nir Alon said about the "Photo Of The Week" section. I am not a professional photographer but I am temped to say that the mentioned section [POTW] could give me [and to others too...] a roughly idea of what other contributors are picturing, on what subjects and so on. Because that POTW is just an INTERNAL BUSINESS, and is NOT REFLECTING neither the trend of the market [speaking in photo-values] nor the SOLD OUT pictures.
I tend to believe [reading Nir Alon's answer] that I am not the only one that would like to see the pictures that were sold to different newspapers or news agencies.
I'd really like to see WHO bought WHAT picture [or set of pictures]. That will give me also an image/idea about what publication is looking for what kind of picture[s], about what kind of stories/subjects are more targeted by the buyers, about what kind of composition/picture did a certain contributor-photographer-photojournalist of DEMOTIX - and that one hit the sky...

I am not from a Revenue Agency to ask for how many pictures sold X or Y photographer and to calculate his/her resulting income...!
I am just a small photographer that would really like to GROW UP!
That's all...

Once again, thank you both for having an opinion and please excuse me for my delay in answering you. Living in Montreal Area puts you "away" from the rest of you with at least 7 hours...

Nir: we're planning on making tearsheets available again as part of our site redesign. The problem is that Demotix is now making a lot more sales than in the early days, and we don't always get copies when your photos are published. We're working on improving this, and should be able to provide you with tearsheets in the future when you make sales.

We're also considering starting a Sales blog each month that highlights some of the most interesting points from the month, whether it's new publications buying photos, the best-selling photos or just providing a few tearsheets as examples of how your images are used.

Ditto the Dashboard - this is an area that needs a lot of improvement, and it's in the pipeline after we've updated more critical pages like the Upload and Story pages.

Thanks for your points about Photo of the Week - maybe we should have a wider survey about it to see if other contributors want to see it continued.

Catalin - thanks for your feedback too.

I know it's annoying to have these discussions and not see immediate results, but we are doing a lot behind the scenes to improve the site and you'll start seeing some of the changes in the next few months. Everything you tell us about how you use the site and the changes you want to see goes into this process - that's why I'm here, after all!

I'd just like to see a sheet with what's selling and whether it's going to paper, web etc. Something real simple with up to a dozen large thumbnails every couple of weeks or so. Hell, even once a month would give a good idea. A very loose guide.

I understand that you can't always get tearsheets from the papers but where you can it would be great to see the success of my work as well as everyone else's.

The publication of any tearsheets will give some optimism to the photographers out there who may not have made a sale, as well as seeing how well Demotix are doing with sales.

Here is a link to a recent usage of a Bank of England shot used in the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/06/business-leaders-quantitative-easing-mpc?newsfeed=true

Thanks, Craig, for giving me an example!
Great picture indeed!
But I was wondering what are the chances for the rest of us - non-UK inhabitants - to have our pictures sold... Let's say a picture like you got showing a building that can be attached to a text in a newspaper...
What do you think: my Canadian pictures/buildings will be able to crawl into a British newspaper?

It will be lucky if I sell even one

I do agree with that I would like to see what photos is bought (should I be lucky to even get one), and to who bought it

Thank you, Richie, for joining this discussion!

Actually my "underneath" question" is:

WHAT are the odds or chances for guys like me, living outside UK, to get pictures sold? What should we picture and how do we have to have our images to be sold in UK and outside UK?

I intend to MAKE A LIVING out of this Photojournalism...

Hi mulea Catalin,

In the answer to your question, all I can say is how long is a piece of string? I still haven't sold a single photo/image to my knowledge since I have joined in April.

OK... so a gray future ahead of us...!
But is there any method/way to combine the efforts together with the DEMOTIX team and - in the end - to have sold pictures?

What I mean, I don't know how or what goes on inside the photo editor's mind about wanting a photo for their stories

As for a grey future....I dunno

As for combining the efforts with the DEMOTIX team, I don't know what you mean by that

"combining the efforts with the DEMOTIX team" = the way to promote ourselves the work from the DEMOTIX website to the outer world to attract the attention over what we did [Facebook, Tweetter, LinkedIn, whatever it is else as social network...].

http://rubensalvadori.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/presenting-photojournalism-behind-the-scenes/ This is an interesting video by a photojournalist who shows you the type of images that sell in papers but it also highlights how photographers can influence what is happening.

I would suggest that you also look at the video on the front page of Demotix on "How to get your work sold" because the advice that the editor of the Guardian gives is very good.

Also look at the style of images used in papers and see if you can learn from what you see. Most picture editors want a picture that is very strong and almost tells the whole story without the text required beneath it.

Choose your best image from your set and put that one as the first image. Then choose the next strongest image as the second one etc. Picture editors look through thousands of images each day so only the strongest impact ones get picked.

Probably that is where I am going wrong

I'm new to this website, so I'm loathe to complain much. Demotix got me published within days of my submission of Occupy protests in Seattle, and I appreciate any agency that can sell my work. I also like the idea that I can write my own headline. The issue I have is that I found the published pictures myself online, and had I not, there would be zero indication that I had made a sale. If the website is so well automated to take pictures, it should be possible for Demotix to ping any client's clicking on the buy button to our dashboard provided it is a confirmed sale. I don't need someone to screenpic my work for a tearsheet, and providing a link could take up time, and I understand payment can take a while, but to get no notification whatsoever creates doubt about what shots may or may not be circulating.

I've sold some work through istock. They always let you know immediately when your work was downloaded, but would not tell you where it was going, which of course, made finding a tearsheet impossible, but this was for studio stock work not news shots so it was less important. Still, their payment was so ludicrous (a dollar a shot) as to make the entire exercise a net loss, and I just stopped bothering with them. In a world where modern photogs may also work as graphic or web designers, which pays 25-50 hr, and stock agencies employ people expecting to support their families on real salaries, respect for the content provider can not be superfluous, regardless of how many young newbies hand out their work for free (until they learn better).

Since these protests began, Demotix has asked me via general email to cover them more. Demotix has a great attitude, editing, and presence, and I would like to continue to provide material, but there has to be some kind of notification of units published, or a clarification that this updates monthly, etc.
I dont know why my copyright is showing up below here, but ok...

Mark,

I suspect iStock and other micro-stock sites are structured so that their primary distribution channel is their web site. As a result, the minute the purchaser clicks the "Buy" button the record of the purchase is available to the photographer/contributor.

The wire service model for photojournalism seems to be based on a much less reliable or efficient system. Images are pushed into a cataloguing system at the publication, and IPTC tagging, captions and keywords are used by the photo editor to find the shots for a story. The publication then reports that use to the wire service (i.e. Demotix) on a regular interval. That interval - as has been pointed out - can be months after the fact.

Here's an example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1352742/Justin-Biebers-family-reunion-Never-Say-Never-3D-premiere-Toronto.html

On the above page, which appeared on the 2nd of Feb they used 2 of my shots from Demotix. I didn't hear about it until August. Being in Toronto Canada I would be unlikely to know about the use until The Daily Mail let Demotix know that it has used the shot. and they in turn let us know.

As an international organisation, with the potential for content being used all over the world, Demotix must rely on the using organisation to report. I think monitoring hundreds, if not thousands, of printed and web publications would be impractical.

BTW, I just had some of my shots purchased by The Canadian Press agency, and I have no idea where when and how many times they were used. I found some on the web through Google, but if they weren't credited to my name, or were in printed newspapers or magazines I wouldn't know.

I got a call from dad this week commenting that he saw my picture in that day's paper. I had to pick it up to discover that the shot was submitted almost a week earlier. I was thrilled (seeing my name under a picture in the paper never gets old), but I wouldn't have even known to bill them if my dad hadn't noticed.

Victor

Mark, Victor's pretty much covered everything in his reply.

We only make a tiny fraction of our sales through the website - most photos get into publications via the FTP feeds we have into their picture desks.

This means that there is no way for us to know when an image has been used until they tell us about it or someone spots it.

The advantage is, if you're a solo photographer, there's a chance someone will think they can get away without paying you - see Victor's story above. Given that we're an agency, we have that bit more clout and bargaining power (not to mention thousands of you reporters out there crawling the internet and reading the news all the time). This means that you are going to get paid - unless they want to stop getting photos from all 4,000 or so of you who upload regularly.

Having worked as a freelance photographer myself, I understand the desire to know when and where an image of mine has been published. But as Tom has highlighted, providing notification to every photographer every time they sell is an impossible task. As Sales Manager here, it makes much more sense to continue to sell the new content coming in as suppose to highlighting work that has already sold.

That said, we are devising a system whereby the Demotix community can see a list of pictures that Ossie Ikeogu, Head of Sales, and myself have sold directly (again, it would be too time-consuming to go through every image each of our resellers have sold as well). This would provide an overview of what kind of images are selling as well as giving everyone a boost to know that we are selling a huge amount of your pictures!

@Mark If we were to send you notification every time someone clicked 'buy' you would get false hope. Many people 'price -up' an image to get an idea of costs. However, to notify you once a payment has been completed would make more sense but again, as Tom mentioned, the amount of people who buy directly through the website is very low. The majority of the sales are made by sending our images via FTP to newspapers, magazines, and by Ossie and myself selling directly.

As Nir pointed out, I use to create blogs; 'Your Pictures in the Press' but the time it too me to chase publications for the tearsheets and then to create the blogs, once again it took a vast amount of my time away form selling further images. However, with Tom onboard now, it is something we're looking into starting again in a different format (monthly sales report)!

I think Craig nailed the point about looking in newspapers to see the style of picture they print:

"Also look at the style of images used in papers and see if you can learn from what you see. Most picture editors want a picture that is very strong and almost tells the whole story without the text required beneath it"

It will not only demonstrate the style of image that newspapers tend to use, but you will also notice the importance of captioning your images. To give picture editors a name and age of a protester, say, will heighten the possibility of a desk using your picture over a picture of just 'a protester'. But the key thing to do is to include semantics in the image - clues as to what the image is about without having to even read the title of an article.

Victor has a great understanding of this industry from his post above and helps to explain the difficulty in alerting you guys to your sales.

For now, I would advise that you look at your dashboard regularly to see if you've made any sales and I will into the possibility of alerts when sales are added to your dash.

Thanks to all for the clarification and info on the process. I feel much less in the dark now.

Do a search on pressdisplay.com for your subject and you may find your images, its not comprehensive but I have found my own images there in the past. Other sources are google (the standard and image search) and zinio for magazines.
Personally I am don't particularely want the world to know which of my images are selling and where. I'd rather keep in to myself. I understand the kick in the beginning and it is very social to inform others.... but others are also my competition and this is how I make my living.

Richard,

pressdisplay.com is fantastic, and I really wish I had known about that before now.

This is directly related to the issue I mentioned earlier, vis-a-vis not always being notified about use in the print edition. Until now I would have to rush out to pick up a copy of a newspaper to know if my shot( were used, and I would need to invoice..

Now a notification is sent from pressdisplay.com. It is not perfect (i.e. not all newspapers or magazines are represented), but it is better than the status-quo

I think think a subscription should be part of the photojournalist tool kit. It is a small price to pay, and if you don't you risk not being paid for use of your work.

When combined with Google Alerts for "Victor Biro" I get notified about many, if not most, uses on news web sites, but there is an exception.

In the example of my work usage on The Daily Mail web site the credit was not visible to Google indexer because it was actually part of the image. While the credit was legible to a viewer, it was not text on the page, and as a result not indexed.

In this case we are going to have to continue to wait for the news outlets to self report to Demotix.

Victor

Just a quick comment to thank Richard for drawing my attention to Pressdisplay.com - what a great tool! Tracked down a number of uses I had no idea about! Thanks!

Another thing to consider when you are choosing your best shot for the first image is that a Landscape picture is preferred over a Portrait shoot, as it fits better in the way the web site works.

Juliette, surely there is some kind of automation system that is in place that notifies us of someone making a transaction on our story/photos? Looking through the internet/papers is like hoping on a prayer and like seeking a needle in a bigger haystack even with the help of some useful websites that track down stories that have been published with our photos

Hi Richard - the only automated notification Demotix photographers receive is when a buyer purchases an image via our e-commerce system.

However, many of our sales are made by sending your pictures directly to newspapers via FTP. The picture desks can use whichever images they like that fall into this 'pool' where AP, Reuters, Getty etc etc are also feeding their pictures into. The newspapers then declare usage to the appropriate newswire/photo-agency, usually within two months.

So, because of the way the industry operates there isn't a way in which to automatically inform you of usages when sold via FTP.

We try our best to keep on top of usages as and when they happen, rather than to wait for the remittance, but it wouldn't be an effective use of our time to inform every one of our photographers every time they sold (we would literally be doing this all day long and not spend time on selling!) as much as I understand that it would be a great service for you guys.

We're always thinking of better ways to improve the service we offer our photographers, however, and will start by displaying a selection of tear-sheets every month. We're also thinking about providing a page on Demotix.com of all images sold by Demotix (not resellers) to give you an idea of the sort of pictures that are selling. Although, this isn't about notification of sales, it should help the Demotix community to understand the volume of sales we are making.

Hi Mark,

You will indeed be paid for the Daily Mail usage. We specify that you will be paid 45 days after declaration of the usage, and we haven't quite got there yet! However, because i chased them for the payment ahead of the time they would usually have paid us, you will be paid in about a week's time (around the 20th November).

The other websites you've seen your images on are either illegal usage or have been sold by one of our resellers (I can't see your images on either site in order to ascertain this). But by having your images bought by one of the one of the most popular online news sites in the world, The Daily Mail Online, brings advantages and disadvantages. Firstly, millions of people see your photography, but out of these millions the probability of someone stealing images increases.

If you'd like to report this image misuse, then please fill out a misuse form here: http://www.demotix.com/image-misuse-form

All best,
Juliette

Thanks for the response Juliette. I was only told shortly, and I wasn't sure what that meant. I must've missed the 45 day standard period in the literature. The other uses I will pass on in the form. I'm sure you guys are working hard on all sides. Thanks.

Mark

"But by having your images bought by one of the one of the most popular online news sites in the world, The Daily Mail Online, brings advantages and disadvantages. Firstly, millions of people see your photography, but out of these millions the probability of someone stealing images increases. "

Sorry, ....ermmm.... I am a bit surprised at this reaction.
Yes, the chance of having your photo pinched is inherent in this industry.
But does this mean that we as photographers, or agents, should accept pilfering because we've sold the photo to a UK national for a few quid?
A lot of agents and photographers are working hard to redress the argument that anything found on the net is free. Any photographers who have found their work gone where it shouldn't should might take a look at Sheila Smarts blog:
http://sheilasmartphotography.blogspot.com/
to see how she has sought finanacial redress for her work,

I ...pffff.....

groet,
Wareham

something that may be being missed here.... Demotix is a business not a social club. They are here to make money by selling pictures. Thereby generating money for the contributors like us.

I would rather they spend time and their limited resources on selling the pictures rather than listing what has already sold.

Demotix is not a training agency any more than any other agency or newspaper is.. If you need tuition in what sells look at the newspapers! Buy a book on Journalism etc.

I agree with Chris.

Chris, it might be a good idea not to comment if you don't understand something.

Tearsheets are an essential part of a freelancers portfolio and proof of publication, not a sop to the ego.

Mark, given the size of the Demotix team and the number of stories and things they are dealing with they have to do the things that keep the ship afloat first.

I expect they will get around to tear sheets as and when they have the resources to implement it. It might be best that you don't comment until you understand what is going on.

Sorry Chris. I forgot that you were the unofficial voice of the Demotix team.

Almost every other agency manages publication date and page because those are the details usually supplied by a paper, especially those that self bill. Is that information really so hard to pass on?

Mark is totally correct on all counts.

I've sold photos by Demotix yet, but I've two photos published on National Geographic Indonesia online on http://nationalgeographic.co.id/lihat/foto/166/hari-bebas-kendaraan-bermotor and http://nationalgeographic.co.id/lihat/foto/342/miniatur-macet

could be nice if Demotix also covered tearsheet photos sold from Indonesia, my country ;D hehe

but I'm enjoying snapshot as well as photo of the week

Can someone please contact me regarding my payment for published Daily Mail pictures. My promised date of Nov 20 has come and gone. My emails aren't being answered.

I'm also waiting for an explanation of the widget and when it pays 12.50 since I have screen pics of three different shots on Google having the url - widget.demotix.com.

Thanks.

@Mark: Juliette tells me you'll be paid by the end of the week for your usage in the Daily Mail - they didn't declare it properly, so she's been chasing them up.

Things having the url widget.demotix.com doesn't actually mean that they have been used in the widget - I can't tell you why, but mysterious technical reasons appear to be to blame.

Sorry that it's taking so long, but as we keep saying the delays are almost never because of us - short of marching down to the Mail offices and demanding the money with menaces, there's not much we can do but continue to pester them until they pay.

Thanks for the response, Tom. There's a lot of nebulous aspects to this business. The photo part is a lot more fun.

Is the widget visible anywhere on the web?

You can see it on this page.

I just thought I'd clarify to prospective and/or new contributors that I DID get paid in the last two months, and while I'm not convinced that photojournalism looks like a career with a liveable pay scale, I'm ok with the process and the responses to queries, at least from Demotix, particularly from Juliette.

As they explain it, some of the outlets they deal with aren't particularly prompt with payment, and that sure isn't anything I'd care or be able to deal with.