These fields are missing from your profile "Tax Country, Tax ID (secure)". Would you kindly fill them in here

yeah i saw this message on my profile too ! we don't have a tax ID in Lebanon , i did put (not listed) but the message is keep showing on my profile lol

It is quite simple.... if you don't give it to Demotix under UK law (Demotix are a UK based company) they have to deduct tax from any money due to you.

Awesome!!!! So I get to pay tax twice. I just love doing that.

I actually find it strange, as my tax number is absolutely useless in the UK. But it seems they want to join the queue of people that have me bent over. :(

i live on the road in a truck ,i do have tax numbers for england,france,spain and portugal although i have only once earned enough to break the tax threshold ,i havent posted any news yet as i havent been able to find the time but i do have projects coming to completion ,i have no expectation of earning money through your site but would like to contribute is that all right?.You can check out who I am by searching the internet for jumblymamba all content is mine,google list 30 00 pages on this server tho' obvious that varies.I dont have an address tho i could borrow one but then i cant certify that everything on my profile is true, please excercise patience with me yours jumblymaba

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Awesome!!!! So I get to pay tax twice. I just love doing that.
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Just for not paying the tax twice, Demotix needs evidence, that You´re located outside of UK. That`s all.

My address is New Zealand on my profile. All my stories are NZ based. My phones numbers are NZ.
It's 2012 yet that message is still there. I reckon two years is long enough that it shouldn't be.

This is getting silly.... UK LAW (nothing to do with Demotix) means you have to prove to the Tax authorites that you have a valid tax number for NewZeland (or where ever). That being the case you don't pay UK tax. I can set up a profile to say I live anywhere I like in the world. It does not mean I am paying tax there.

That you keep avoiding giving Demotixc your tax number would make any tax offical very suspisious. I know as my company trades globally.

Stephen, remember you are doing Bussiness internationally with a company who is paying you.... What details would a New Zeland company want from you before they paid you a consultansy fee or a sallery?

Not my tax number Chris. Your dead right it is silly. But then I also shoot for another offshore company, two in fact, one US based the other Aussie based and they have no need for my tax number.
Consultancy fees are different to salaries. One is invoiced (contract) the other a wage, I work on invoice for all companies, and that includes Demotix.
They do NOT pay me a salary or wage. And that is the big difference, ergo why the need for my tax number? My account knows it and I know it. The End. NO ONE ELSE!

Well, I find it in any case a little bit outrageous to blame any ordinary citizen (may it be an entrepreneur or not) for the laws, which are forced on him by the legislator of his country and to require him to become punished for not follow them.

Well you stick to your guns there Stephen and Demotix will HAVE TO deduct 20% of your payment. THAT IS THE LAW. Your righteous indignation is going to cost you a lot of money for what?

No, not much Chris. Nothing sells for me through here anyway

By the way, when using offshore contractors local tax is not your problem.

Well, obviously Stephen didn´t made the point yet. Being outside the own country doesn´t mean, being outside of taxes.

At first the british treasury officers doesn´t like to see any blurr in the documents of Demotix, who is a british tax-payer and who is not. They ask to get this verified and not suggested - otherwise they ask Demotix to pay the tax, which may be lost in the cases without evidence. That´s usually almost at all European countries (including Swizerland) nowadays - and what means "evidence", is set by the legislator and not by the tax payers.

At second british treasury officers are interested in getting informations about the earnings of their sheeps - worldwide. These asking from the treasury officers of other countries, they´re of course supposed to deliver equivalent informations about the sheeps of the opposite treasury officers too.

At third all businesses with relationships to a lot of other entrepreneurs are - almost at Germany - in high focus of treasury officers, because there can be effectively found informations about the earnings of a lot of tax payers at an once place. Wholesalers of foods for example are on the highest end on the list for researchement, because their sells to thousands of customers allows conclusions to the earnings of a lot of companies collacting cash. After the netherland tax investigators supplied the complete customer list with the concerned sales of one of the greatest resellers of asian food to the german treasury authorities, many specialty restaurants located here got a serious problem.

Like all businesses running a lot of representatives, Demotix is almost a great point to discover people getting eventually at home not declared earnings - indifferent if british people or tax-payers located anywhere else. That´s the opposite site of a medal, that Demotix decided to be a serious news wire and picture agency instead of a provider of free content like Flickr or Youtoube.

Photographers, who are going to contract with a busines, which not is just simply spreeding their content, but supplying it against paid honorary, cann´t ask the opposite contracting party to violate the laws set to them. Any discussion about that is clearly useless.

Additionally said:

If we want get the money out of Demotix close to the time, the sales are counted, we cann´t delay provide the necessary informations to decide, whether should be paid the complete photographers share or only 80% of it, to the day the money should be wired. It´s unfair, to ask the accountants to spend half an hour reseaching and clearing dates for an once payment, which must be completed within half a minute (or less) and it´s also unfair, to blame them for incorrect or delayed payment, if we set the reason for that.

So all you guys are telling me is I should bend to Demotix even though the DON'T PAY ME A WAGE? I am a contractor after all, not a salary or wage worker.

I've missed something big time here. So when all you people in Europe hire a contractor to do a job you have to pay their tax for them? I'm really shocked to see this, cause that's what your telling me.

But wait, then I must have some holiday pay etc due.

How many times.... THE UK LAW (nothing to do with Demotix) says UK tax WILL BE DEDUCTED unless you can show you are registered for Tax somewhere else. The evidence of paying tax somewhere else is a valid tax number.

Yes when you pay some one you pay the tax for them unless they can PROVE they are paying it themselves. Simple as that. Contractors would have to supply their company number AND VAT number. Those who are not a company etc would have to supply their Tax number.

How difficult can it be to understand?

there is the law and there is reality. the law in the UK is that UK companies have to account for taxes. the reality is that the UK govt. wants some of the action. when one considers that a decent lens costs more that what we hope to earn in a year it makes no sense chase peanuts.

haha, no wonder there's so many pome's heading for the south seas.....

Stephen wrote:

"So when all you people in Europe hire a contractor to do a job you have to pay their tax for them?"

Exactly. If the builders craftsman, who someone asked to build or repair anything at his company building, doesn´t add the confirmation form described at §§ 48 to 48d EStG (which became valid in august 2001), he has deduct 15% of the amount and send the money to the treasury office responsible for the place of the business of this craftsman.
http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/nn_39848/DE/BMF__Startseite/Service/Glossar/S/022__Steuerabzug__bei__Bauleistungen.html
For craftsmen located abroad, the responsible treasury office is set at a special list (for craftsmen from New Zealand the treasury office is Berlin-Neukölln) which You can see for example here http://www.ofd.niedersachsen.de/portal/live.php?navigation_id=17533&article_id=67782&_psmand=110

For foreign sportsmen and artists we have similar rules, that`s why some artists are avoiding Germany. If You´re the Michael Jackson in photography, the treasury minister would eventually discuss about an exception with Your management, but I don´t believe, that Germans are so interested in photography like in rock music ...

So please take in consideration, that a contract between a picture agency and a photographer is a contract between two entrepreneurs and finally stop kiddling here.

Peter you are miss using the word entrepreneurs. You should use company or companies.

Entrepreneur in English is a term applied to a person who is willing to help launch a new venture or enterprise and accept full responsibility for the outcome. A speculator is another word often used for an Entrepreneur.

An Entrepreneur is usually someone with multiple businesses..... They tend to move one when they are up and running

MOST businesses are not run by Entrepreneurs.

Peter you are miss using the word entrepreneurs. You should use company or companies.

Entrepreneur in English is a term applied to a person who is willing to help launch a new venture or enterprise and accept full responsibility for the outcome. A speculator is another word often used for an Entrepreneur.

An Entrepreneur is usually someone with multiple businesses..... They tend to move one when they are up and running

MOST businesses are not run by Entrepreneurs.

Lawrence JW Baron wrote:

"when one considers that a decent lens costs more that what we hope to earn in a year it makes no sense chase peanuts."

Unfortunately there is no legislator, which wrote an exception into the concerned law for photographers, which contracted with Demotix. As long this don´t happen, both Demotix and we are considered as entrepreneurs.

And the evidence, that You don´t achieve profit by the pictures sold, You have to give to Your local treasury office in Spain within Your tax declaration. The british treasury investigators are only interested to tell the spain treasury authorities about the fact, that You earned money via Demotix. If Your local treasury office see these amounts in Your determination of income included and determines, that You´re a honestful (and not a forgetful) citizen of Spain, allthing will be fine and You wouldn´t even notice something about this correspondence. Otherwise it may happen somewhen, that they´re going to look closer into Your acounting documents.

Almost the correspondence between spanish and german treasure investigators works very fine, so I don´t see a reason, that it should be different between Great Britain and Spain.

Chris Hills wrote:

"Peter you are miss using the word entrepreneurs. You should use company or companies."

Well, is an once person like a lawyer, a doctor, an architect or a journalist also a "company", if he isn´t employed by someone else?
Here at Germany we distinguish not only for reasons of taxation between the people, using above all their mental abilities to earn their incomes and such like craftsmen, dealers or producers of goods.

The point is to understand, that photographers selling their pictures to the editors (indifferent, if via an agency or not) are responsible for themselfes LIKE a company. Many "citizen photographers" confuse nowadays the agency they contracted with an employer or with their grandfather, which causes endless discussions like this one.

Thanks.

Chris Hills wrote:

"A speculator is another word often used for an Entrepreneur."

Well, the term "Spekulant" (if it is the translation) has here a not so good taste nowadays. These are people, who earn money not by creating new values.
A "Spekulant" is someone, who buys actions, goods or rights in the hope, that the market price will rise up. Or he sells lented actions or goods supposing to buy them later for less, than he sold them at the moment.

Peter thank you for correcting a native English Speaker on his use of English....

I know exactly what a speculator is in English and what an entrepreneur is. Your usage is not going to be understood by others.

Chris Hill wrote:

"Peter thank you for correcting a native English Speaker on his use of English.... :-)"

Hm, but this line isn´t really an answer to my question, isn´t it?
I wrote
"Well, is an once person like a lawyer, a doctor, an architect or a journalist also a "company", if he isn´t employed by someone else?"

and what I´m understanding - at the moment - under a "Spekulant" (intentionally using the german term). If Your answer to my question is "No", so it would be very kindly to give me the term, which I had to use instead of "entrepreneur".

Thanks,
Peter

use company or business. If not it is a person. In one case the Company Number and is applicable the VAT number would be supplied on the other a personal Tax Number.

Demotix ask for a personal Tax number as most of their contributors are individuals. Others are businesses and provide company numbers and VAT numbers.

BTW I could be considered an entrepreneur as I have three companies all running under UK law. We also use contractors and freelance people. And I have run an employment agency. So I have some idea of what I am talking about.

peter my point is that since the amount of money most of us spend on equipment, travel and the like is much higher that what we make from selling photos the govt would end up owing us money. if the tax burden is going to be so high than it might make more sense to say register our photos in the US and then put them up on a web site and wait for someone to infringe our copyright. only in this case would it make sense to go into the photo business. in English we call what we get pin money.

Thanks, Lawrence - that is just, what I read in Your former contribution.

There´s a very great difference between getting money and achieve profit. But sorry, that´s not the point. To determinate, that You didn´t achieve profit and that You doesn´t need to pay taxes, is the last step of the process called tax assessment (in german: "Steuerveranlagung", if Google translator isn´t wrong again). For this step responses the local tax authorities of the region, where You´re registered.
The informations required by Demotix serves for the very first step of the tax assessment: determinate, who is a potentially tax-payer. That´s the task, which shares almost all European tax authorities. Where ever a citizen gets money, they want get the local authority informed.

That´s said to understand the background. Anyhow, if You achieving profit or not - Demotix has to follow the law, because there´s no legal reason to complain against it.
Whenever Demotix will be selected for a tax investigation, there mustn´t be a extraordinarial payment in consequence of it. Demotix cann´t argue, that this poor photographer located where ever hasn´t to pay taxes at all. If nobody of us would fullfill the requirements of this law, Demotix had a quarter of all photographer´s honoraries to pay additional to the british tax authorities. That will be a serious problem, if not break them the neck.

Chris Hill kindly answered:

"BTW I could be considered an entrepreneur as I have three companies all running under UK law. We also use contractors and freelance people. And I have run an employment agency. So I have some idea of what I am talking about."

I never doubt about that. By the way: I have been working on german tax laws since fifteen years and also have some idea of what I am talking about.

As I wrote answering to Lawrence yet: a tax investigation at Demotix mustn´t have any charges to them caused by photographers being resistant against all arguments. After coming to this agreement, we can talk about anything else up to pensionist´s age.

Chris Hills kindly answered:

"use company or business. If not it is a person. In one case the Company Number and is applicable the VAT number would be supplied on the other a personal Tax Number.

Demotix ask for a personal Tax number as most of their contributors are individuals. Others are businesses and provide company numbers and VAT numbers."

The first point is, that Demotix is working together with photographers all over the world. Even a comparision between british and german structures makes obvious, that the whole world cann´t be measured by the situation of London city.

Have a look to Germany:
We have tax numbers, who are used for incoming tax, VAT and salary tax. These tax numbers are completely unsuitable for Demotix, if they are provided without indication of the federal country, where the owner of the tax number is used.
The german tax authorities are organized on level of the once federal country, not on level of the federation. The consequence is, that You may found in every federal country a natural person or legal entity, which is coded by exactly the same combination of digits.
We have ID-numbers, which are introduced only for natural persons yet, but not for legal entities. These ID-numbers are unique within Germany.
And we have the VAT-ID, which is unique not only within Germany, but also within Europe, but available only for the natural persons or legal entities paying withheld VAT.
So a german may think, that the VAT-ID could be the most appropriate of these three.

Having a look to other countries, we´ll get deeper headaches.
Meanwhile even a german tax officer should understand, that a somalian photographer cann´t provide a valid tax number, that would be less obvious at cases of Lebanon or New Zealand. Somalia is wellknown to be a anarchy without any registration structures for years, but the mayority of other countries isn´t.

We had here repeatedly serious problems to save the money of foreign people, who cann´t fullfill the requirements for tax reliefs setted for support their needy relatives. They sent the money by a busdriver to a village at the balkan-mountains instead by bank transfer ...

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"BTW I could be considered an entrepreneur as I have three companies all running under UK law. We also use contractors and freelance people. And I have run an employment agency. So I have some idea of what I am talking about."

From the point of view of a german I would at first difference between natural persons or legal entities. Natural persons can be employees, who get their taxes deducted by the employee and needn´t think much about them at all for their whole live. Such people buys a DSLR, put their pictures to Flickr, istockphoto, Shutterstock and Demotix or get´s them stolen out of the fotocommunity. They becomes confused, if a honest editor anounces to be interested in usage of a picture and asks them for an invoice. Than they walk into a foto-forum and ask for advice, how much money they should ask and what to write the required invoice. Not rarely these people reistered in advance a business as photographer for take pictures meanwhile the marriage of their neighbourghs.
Anyhow, the mayority of these people doen´t want to realise, that they aren´t individuals anymore (translation by Google of the term "Privatleute") in relation to their attempts to sell pictures. They believe, that selling hundreds times of pictures by an agency is nothing else than selling their old bicycle by ebay.

Of course, natural persons can also be businessmen, who doesn´t become querulous being asked for prove this property by a manner set up by any law, because they´re not rarely confronted themselfes with nervous tax officers.
Talking about businessmen, we germans would think at first about traders, craftsmen and producers of goods. A photographer, who takes for example pictures of celebrities or for passports, is here considered as a craftsman. A photographer, who works as an artist, as a reporter or a lecturer, falls into the same cathegory like doctors, architects, engineers, lawyers and so on. This difference can be negligible in reality at Germany, but is very great at the moment for photographers being located at Austria.