Interview with Marion Leigthon, Rounder Records Founder and Bluegrass expert while she visited London. She discussed the history of Rounder and its role in preserving American Folk music and the racial and political roots of the music she loves. London, UK. 23/05/2008
Leading a record label to glory in modern times is a challenging undertaking. Marion Leighton is one of the three founders of Rounder Records: established in 1970, it is going from strength to strength. Most organisations I have ever worked for only have a corporate memory that stretches back a few years. There might be a few individual employees who may have worked there for 20 years or so. But executives, directors and senior management tend to come and go, following that fickle master, money! To meet someone who has been at the helm of their organisation for 40 years without interruption is extremely rare. Marion Leighton is no corporate executive. She doesn’t exude power and influence. She doesn’t carry one of those infernal Blackberrys around and nor does she have an obsequious PA hovering in the background. What she does have, though, is a modest sense of her own importance in the history of bluegrass and blues in America.
Rounder was started in 1970 when its founders were all still students. A psychologist, a politics professor and history major, they continue to own and manage part of musical history. Having gone to many bluegrass festivals during the late 1960s the friends decided to form a record label that focused on this genre. Bluegrass was poorly represented by the mainstream labels and some artists weren’t getting recorded. This has been the philosophy of the label since its inception. The focus of the business is upstream, making sure musicians who may have been missed by the bigger labels, are recorded for posterity.
It all started for Rounder when JD Crowe assembled a young band of superstars in the early 1970s and brought this record out on Rounder in 1974: JD CROWE AND THE NEW SOUTH. Fortunately the record sold well and established Rounder Records as a serious player in country and bluegrass music. A seminal album that started a whole new generation following and being involved in bluegrass included Tony Rice, Jerry Douglas and Ricky Skaggs. Now with a back catalogue of hundreds of bluegrass records, Rounder’s history is very much the history of bluegrass.
To have remained independent for forty years is an incredible achievement. There have been so many changes to the music industry over the last four decades it is hard to understand how anyone can make money. EMI has been in significant trouble in recent years. Woolworth, Virgin MegaStores and Borders have all disappeared. Outlets for music such as bluegrass, country, world and jazz is dwindling. The internet is now taking over, although HMV are still hanging on in there. Soon CDs will be put behind glass as an anachronistic reminder of how we used to consume music. Increasingly most musicians are moving away from the traditional ways to market their own wares. Radiohead broke away from their label and gave their latest album away free on the internet. Prince did the same but through a national newspaper. The market has morphed again...MP3 downloads are now being replaced by continuous streaming, where no-one owns anything! Artists can now get distribution through one or two major outlets. CDs are becoming items used solely for advertising and promotional purposes. The role of the record label is becoming less clear as the different channels mature.
Rounder now has a back catalogue of 100s of bluegrass albums that chart the development and continual evolution of a musical genre. Most notable of Rounder’s artists is Alison Krauss. As a 14-year-old fiddle prodigy, Alison wanted to be on Rounder because of its musical heritage and link with bluegrass. She signed when she was 15 and has been with the label for over 20 years, despite being courted over and over again by some of the major labels. With an international profile and a huge fan base Alison really is the jewel in the crown at Rounder. Her collaboration RAISING SAND with Robert plant went platinum in the US and NOW THAT I'VE FOUND YOU: A COLLECTION went double platinum.
Part of Rounder’s success must be attributed to the fact that the founders see their role as custodians of a nation’s musical heritage. The first generation of bluegrass musicians would never have considered joining an independent label like Rounder. On the other hand, the second generation became successful through the summertime bluegrass festivals in the US. These are extensive and do provide musicians with a varied outlet. You could spend the entire summer going from one bluegrass festival to another (there are people who do that). Rounder had access to these musicians and the bigger labels weren’t signing bluegrass artists at that point. The first generation bluegrass artists (Bill Monroe, Stanley Brothers and Flatt and Scruggs) were either dead or retired from music. However, the major labels weren’t pursuing a strategy of replacing these artists with new, younger ones. Tony Rice and players like him were available and looking for labels to help develop their music. Rounder made it their task to record these great musicians—the music was always the focus. Rounder’s timing in terms of launching themselves and choosing artists was just right. It was the time of the bluegrass revival and there were many great musicians waiting around to be signed.
One inspired signing was the virtuoso Norman Blake. He started his association with Rounder in 1972 with BACK HOME IN SULPHER SPRINGS. Since those early days Norman has released nearly 20 albums on Rounder and Flying Fish (also owned by Rounder). He is renowned as a ground-braking flat picking guitar player who has worked with Steve Earle, Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan. Funnily enough, he features on RAISING SAND, but more about that later. The late John Hartford produced nearly 40 albums in his career, with over a quarter of his output on Rounder. Bela Fleck signed to Rounder in 1979 and has also released a significant number of albums on the label.
Through a unique culture and a focus on music Rounder Records has carved a niche for itself as the musical custodian of a generation. Some artists have been tempted away to Warners and Sony, but most stay for a significant part of their careers releasing great album after great album. Rounder have a reputation for treating people fairly and focusing on the music, not on the money. Their philosophy seems to be that if the music is great, success follows.
In those early days contracts were probably on one page and would be for one or two albums. It cost very little to record an album and there was usually no marketing budget discussed. It is a tribute to Rounder that so many artists stayed for such extended periods of time when there was no real compulsion to do so. However, the only real alternative during this time was Rebel Records, whose distribution wasn’t as good. Sugar Hill Records (not to be confused with the rap label of the same name) came along in 1978 and provided some challenging competition, targeting Jerry Douglas and Ricky Skaggs, tempting them away for a record or two. It is interesting that Sugar Hill Records first successful album featured Ricky and Jerry, both musicians from JD Crowe and New South album. In 1997 Ricky Skaggs started his own label—Skaggs Family Records.
Over the years Rounder has had a range of talent come and go: Peter Rowan, Rhonda Vincent, Uncle Earl, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Nanci Griffith, and most recently, Steve Martin. These days, the record label does have options to hold on to its talent. More recently bands like the Cowboy Junkies and Madeleine Peyroux have joined the label creating an exciting time at Rounder. The three original founders still have a directing hand on the day to day running of the business, sitting in on A&R meetings.
In terms of blues, Rounder have focused on New Orleans and have recorded some of the great artists that have been ignored by larger labels. “In the 1980s we started identifying historically important and great blues artists that hadn’t recorded in decades,” Marion explains. Irma Thomas was signed by Rounder and won a Grammy nomination for her 1991 album LIVE! SIMPLY THE BEST. Irma has a great soul voice and is affectionately called the ‘Soul Queen of New Orleans!’ Rounder has been recording her in excess of 20 years. In August 2009, a compilation album with three new songs titled THE SOUL QUEEN OF NEW ORLEANS: 50TH ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION was released to commemorate Thomas’ 50th year as a recording artist.
Other artists brought into the Rounder stable include Tuts Washington, Champion Jack Dupree and Johnny Adams. Tuts Washington had avoided recording for most of his career, but released a solo piano album called NEW ORLEANS PIANO PROFESSOR on Rounder Records in 1983. Sadly, he died in 1984 but thankfully Rounder had captured his talent for prosperity. Champion Jack Dupree was a boxer (hence the name) in a former life, but had played piano since the age of 10. He was brought up in New Orleans but lived in Halifax, Yorkshire for a time. He died in 1992 having released his first record in 1940 and his last one on Rounder.
Again the late Johnny Adams recorded his last album on Rounder. He was one of the great New Orleans blues singers. They have also recorded the venerable Ellis Marsalis, father of the Marsalis brothers, who is an important piano player and teacher. Brass bands and Mardi Gras music from New Orleans has also found its way onto Rounder. They have also undertaken the same kind of approach with the musicians of Memphis, signing Ann Peebles, best known for her Memphis soul albums of the 1970s.
I asked Marion if Rounder see themselves as custodians of American folk music. “I hope we would recognise the important things, what is musically good. We would also work with the artist to make a record that they were comfortable with us representing. We wouldn’t tell the musician what they should be doing, because they make their living in a particular market and they have to believe in their music, too. That is when you get to the intangible part of running a record company: you’re a custodian, you’re a historian, but it is always a work in progress. Obviously we have to balance the commercial consideration to some degree.”
“We have to be aware of commercial realities now more than ever before because it costs more to make and market records than it used to. There was a time when we were motivated by a sense that this record should be out there, so we’ll just do it. We can’t do this as much now because the record industry is changing so quickly. The way in which the music has changed is largely around the infrastructure. Entire chains have gone out of business. In the last two years the stark reality is that the record industry sales are down by 25% in terms of revenue. There are new revenue streams, such as iTunes, but it doesn’t make up for the massive drop in sales of CDs. Virgin, Tower and entire chains have just gone out of business. This drop in sales has not been made up yet. I do believe it will, but in the meantime we have to be cautious. We aren’t going to look for other ways to make money, because that was not our reason for setting up Rounder. However, we still have to be careful. Investment in sales and marketing is not as significant as it used to be, because sales are going to be depressed compared to where they were five or six years ago. This is particularly true of blues, though bluegrass seems to be doing better. This is partly due to the number of bluegrass festivals in the summer months and the fact that we have a superstar like Alison Krauss on our books. There hasn’t been a comparable artist like her in blues, although Amy Winehouse comes close, if she doesn’t self-destruct. The other great singer of the moment is Duffy.”
Race and bluegrass and country have always been an issue for me. I sometimes find it hard to reconcile the fact that there are genres of music that seem to be the domain of white musicians. Rounder is clearly and rightly race-agnostic, recording artists across most American folk genres. I asked Marion what her perspective was on this issue. “My views have changed over the years, but I was acutely aware of the absence of women and blacks in bluegrass music. This is true of the larger country music world as well. And of course being a child of the late sixties, and being interested in blues it does seem like a notable lack or omission. There must be only one possible explanation: it must be racism. And of course this is true to some extent. However, the more you look at the issues the more complicated it gets. For instance Ralph Stanley [came out in support of Barrack Obama] has demonstrated his intolerance of racism many times over the years. However, if you look at where bluegrass emanated from, there just aren’t many black people living in Appalachia, which is the roots of the music. Bill Monroe was from a poor family in Western Kentucky, the Stanleys were mountain folk from Southern Virginia. Incidentally, black music directly influenced Bill Monroe— it influenced the first generation of bluegrass musicians far more than the present generation, even though it may not be visible. Likewise women—women stayed home because there was no opportunity to perform. If the male bluegrass musicians hired women to play in their bands they would probably get into trouble from their wives. Going on the road in those days was not something women could do and yet maintain their reputation. The gender and race issues are complicated. It is further complicated by the fact that blues was invented by impoverished black musicians who were probably no more or no less better off than the people who invented bluegrass. So I think whatever racism you do encounter is further complicated by the poverty. You always want to have someone worse off than you are. Hillbillies and black people are unquestionably referred to in derogatory terms. ‘Trash’ was a common word that was used to insult both groups. Even Hillbilly is a racist term. Both groups of musicians were concerned about acceptance, respectability and having their art form taken seriously and not wanting to be regarded as ‘trash.’ What you may think of as racism has more to do with marginalised cultures that were extremely poor, each group concerned more about eking out a living. There was far more musical interaction than has generally been acknowledged during the start of bluegrass. Tony Russell here in London has written a lot about blacks, whites and the blues.” [See his book Blacks, Whites and the Blues where he discusses some of these issues].
Certainly, bluegrass music now appeals to people of all races. “Bela Fleck has two African Americans in his band and they have taken the genre in a completely new direction, creating a fusion of bluegrass, jazz and blues. He has spent time in Africa recording with local musicians and taking the banjo back to its roots. The banjo is not just the preserve of white Americans. So these sensitivities are acknowledged within the bluegrass community and specifically within that band. And of course we come full circle with Alison Krauss playing blues and rockabilly with Robert Plant: Alison is a woman who made her name playing bluegrass. It has taken us a long time to get there, but it is amazing. Whether people actually realise that that is what they are listening to is beside the point.”
Rounder has a significant problem as time moves on. The Rounder Founders are not getting any younger and they hope to pass their legacy on to people with the same values and enthusiasm for American music. The Rounder catalogue is both a significant financial asset and a piece of American history. Although Rounder is not run as a charitable foundation many of its unwritten principles could make you think it was. Going public or selling out are not options. Finding someone who thinks the same way to act as custodian of the catalogue is an interesting problem to have and one that has not yet been resolved.
“In the early days we only ever considered the label as a hobby and never imagined multimillion dollar advertising budgets. However, this legacy issue is something we didn’t consider when we were younger. You think you will live forever, then. Some of the recordings are owned by the Smithsonian institute, but they now see themselves as commercial and are cherry picking some of the recording artists. For record companies that have been taken over their catalogue can go dormant or just get forgotten. Rhino’s relationship to Warner is a good example. Mining the catalogue and making it available is important. They seem to be doing a better job than we would have expected, but it is not what we want for Rounder. No government department is going to come to our rescue so we are going to have to continue to ensure the survival of the catalogue.”
The backdrop to our conversation was the phenomenal concert that we had both witnessed the night before at London’s Wembley Arena—Alison Krauss and Robert Plant. Back to Marion: “My perspective is that it is difficult not to sit and beam the whole time while I am watching them. It is such a great privilege to work with them. Selling that album has been a great experience. We have sold nearly a million in the UK, over a million in the US, and platinum in Canada. It is by far and away the largest selling album we have ever had. JD Crowe didn’t sell as many but we knew we wanted it out there. To some extent Alison and Robert’s album was similar, although the marketing costs are considerably more expensive nowadays, so we needed to sell a lot. Dealing with three managers and sorting out three sets of royalties is a challenge, in terms of T. Bone, Alison and Robert. We did agonise over the numbers, running different scenarios to make sure we knew what the worst case would be. Alison has been part of Rounder for over twenty years and we wanted to put that record out.” RAISING SAND went on to win a Grammy in 2009, icing on the cake for an amazing journey of musical diversity.
Rounder is unique: it has a sense of its own importance in the history of America music and it retains artists throughout most of their careers. However, in a world of instant gratification, streaming content and recycled electronic music Rounder is anachronistic. Let us hope for all our sakes that Marion and her partners find a way to keep the Rounder catalogue intact and pass on their legacy to the next generation.
